Character Discussion: Elfangor

[buffyangellvr23.livejournal.com]

I don't think I got him yet. We only saw a little of him in book one, plus the special books had him. Andalite Chronicles especially. I sometimes wish the group had gotten a chance to know him better, that he'd been around longer, and not just because of Tobias.

Comments

[mattiris.livejournal.com]

I love Elfangor so much. He may just be my favourite literary character ever.

More in-depth analysis when I'm not half-asleep.

[isteillia.livejournal.com]

elfangor was my hero as a kid. he was just and patient, but in the end, he was only "human". He ran from the fight because he was tired of the politics, the fighting. he wanted a life of his own, and he reached out and took it, but he realized he had a duty and went back to it when he was needed.

He had his flaws, but it made him more endearing to me. I do think that in Andalite society he would have been labeled as odd or worse for finding a human attractive- Not really sure how Andalite society handles xenophilia, really.

I wish we had seen more of him, and that tobias had been given a chance to know him as his dad. I bet Elfangor would have been the best dad ever.

[mattiris.livejournal.com]

The cruelest tragedy of the whole series is that we never got a scene of Tobias, Ax, and Elfangor talking.

[natural-blue-26.livejournal.com]

Agreed. That should've gotten worked into either 54 or A Chronicals somehow :(

[charreed.livejournal.com]

Aww your comment made me think of the sheer feeling and emotion I get from seeing this piece: http://charreed.deviantart.com/favourites/#/d2u7hs9

*sniffle* An Ax, Tobias and Elfangor scene in the books would have been awesome, even as just a dream sequence or something.

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

I think we all love Elfangor a lot because we are supposed to love Elfangor a lot. Before the Andalite Chronicles, he's really just kind of that deified mentor figure, and what's so effective about that first book is how well they present him that way.

I mean, the first book follows the whole Hero's Journey pretty closely, but what is so FUCKED UP and amazing about it is how perverted and castrated it is. Luke got Obi-Wan through two acts of a three-act movie. Harry got Dumbledore for six of seven books. How long did the kids get Elfangor?

All of five minutes.

I love that decision, making them figure out almost EVERYTHING on their own, because it gave them such a degree of agency and there was this whole level of "do we really HAVE to be doing this?" The fact that the choice to fight in the war was entirely theirs, and at no point were they trying to earn the love/approval of some grizzled, experienced father-figure just made the whole series that much more tragic and immediate. I love AppleGrant for kind of subverting children's lit conventions like that.

Anyway, that was in the first book. In The Andalite Chronicles, which is still my favorite book in the series, he becomes a lot more than some saintlike god figure and he actually gets one of the most well done character arcs of all the secondary characters in the whole series. He starts off as kind of a petulant, immature, idealistic twerp and ends up an experienced adult who's capable of seeing just how complicated and painful things like great success and acclaim can be. And yeah, whose heart wasn't broken by the last thirty pages in that book? (which, honestly, I cannot think of another unique 30 pages in any book I like better)

but I do want to mention something.

and I don't know if now or the Ellimist's character discussion is the right time to bring it up

but does anyone else think the Ellimist totally coerced Elfangor into going back into the war? Like, no ambiguity about it, the Ellimist lied, used, and forced Elfangor back into the war?

Because here's the way I see it: Ellimist may have access to more information than any other being, and a more than fair ability to manipulate it, but that doesn't mean he's serving some higher "destiny" or whatever. Most of the things he changes would have stayed the same without his influence.

The Ellimist CHOSE Elfangor. Maybe because he got involved in the Time Matrix bullshit, maybe because he liked the way he looked, idk. But Elfangor's destiny was not prewritten at all before the Ellimist got involved.

So when the Ellimist comes down and says "you're not supposed to be here, this isn't where you belong, you need to be somewhere else," it was pretty much a LIE, right? I mean, if that's true, that's basically giving the Ellimist license to write the history and fates of purely sapient beings--something the Christian God can't even do. And we learn from him in The Ellimist Chronicles that he DOESN'T know a lot, including what happens after death and whether or not he made mostly right or mostly wrong decisions.

I mean, I'm sure this isn't a very profound conclusion, but the fact that Elfangor chose to go with him was sort of like someone choosing to go with a conman. The Ellimist knew Elfangor's weakness--his sense of duty--and played to that. He also withheld very important information until Elfangor had agreed to go with him. If Elfangor actually had agency, full information, and any kind of power at all in that situation, who else would be willing to bet he'd have said "no"?

I don't know. tl;dr, the Ellimist is a dick.

[lisacharly.livejournal.com]

The Ellimist is totally a dick. I kind of like him anyway, but yeah, wottadouche.

You know, I was about to come in here and be like "eh, Elfangor never really did it for me, though I think he's well-written". And then I read this comment, and your mention of the thirty pages at the end of TAC, and it's like...nevermind. I actually really do love him. Those pages just break my heart into tiny little pieces.

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

idk, I even loved him in the first book. then again you think 3 and 5 are the strongest out of the first five so IDK GIRL

but seriously the lines:

"come out, it's all right, we won't hurt you"
<I know>

WILL NEVER NOT GIVE ME CHILLS

[lisacharly.livejournal.com]

#1 is exposition, #2 is meh, and #4 is talking whales! Whereas #3 and #5 are delightful storyline-progressing angst! Also I just like Marco and Tobias best.

That is a very good exchange.

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

#2 is definitely meh, but #1 is good exposition, origin-story awesomeness, and while I agree with #5 being delightful story-progressing angst...#3? really? a water/air ship we never see again and tobias wanting to bone a girlhawk?

IDK GIRL. We get Ax in #4, so talking whales aside (and I'm negl, I liked the talking whales), that's all I need to like it.

[lisacharly.livejournal.com]

True, #1 is good exposition, but it's a lot of it. And tbh I never really got into Jake's narrative voice all that much. Everyone else has their own feel to it - Tobias' and Cassie's endless pontificating, Marco's humor and dream imagery, Rachel's "dear diary, today I ripped out someone's throat" matter-of-fact straightforward teenager vibe. Jake just...tells a story. I don't know. #16, #26 and #53 are pretty much the only books where Jake's voice really clicks for me.

#3, to me, is the start of series going "okay, this isn't just about aliens and warfare", where it goes from being a pretty straightforward adventure series to being a bit more about deconstructing the teenage superhero idea. Like, I can't imagine another series for that age range really pulling off a (pseudo?) suicide attempt and that many questions of identity in the third book. It also gives the Anis their first real win, and they don't really get a win again until the end of #7. I don't know, that one isn't story-progressing so much but I love the precedent it sets for the series.

#4...I can't do the talking whales. It has some great scenes in it, and yes, AX!, but he doesn't really show up till the end and a lot of it is badly-defined Cassie angsting about responsibility, which would work better if they pressed that character trait a bit further, but they never did.

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

I kind of like the fact that Jake's narrative voice is sort of generic. I mean, I get what you're saying, but tbh I think it's okay that with all of the extreme personality types around him, Jake really is just this Average Joe. And in the books you mention, I feel like his shrewd/ruthless leader comes out a little bit more, which isn't itself BAD but...ugh, I'd rather have Jake be generic/extrospective than whine and whine and whine about how hard it is to be a leader. And idk, from a writer's perspective the amount of information they unload in that book without confusing or alienating viewers just astounds me. Maybe this is just my own issue as a writer, but I cannot get a handle on that "start as late as possible" whole thing and when you look at the fact that by page 45 of the first book, the construction scene is over...idk, just wow.

I get what you're saying about #3, and it is all Tobias angst but I think it's some of the most annoying Tobias angst in the series. The attempted suicide to me felt so hokey, and I mean I get that this is all first person narration and Tobias would be the ABSOLUTE LAST PERSON in the series to admit that he got stuck on purpose, but I guess I just wanted it not to be so one-sided whining. A little more Hamlet "what am I doing" and less like Othello "my life sux so bad u guise srsly :("

and idk, I just feel like #4 is the first time everything feels like it's fallen into place, everyone's dialogue feels like their dialogue and it's well paced and yeah Cassie whining boo hoo whatever shut up and idk, I love that Tobias could hear him just like Cassie could. That was a really good detail very early in the series, and plus it was the first Animorphs book I read so idk I may be biased.

[tobiahawk.livejournal.com]

Elfangor's heartbreak when he realizes he has a son he's leaving behind is palatable, though I have to admit I also "aww" at him saying "hello, little brother" to Ax because, well, awww.

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

It bothered me when Elfanor kept talking about how he knew he was predestined to be the enemy of Visser Three, from a storytelling standpoint. Come on! It's not like Elfangor and Visser Three wouldn't have hated each other without their ***cosmic destiny decreeing it so****, what with Visser Three taking Alloran as a host and all. It was unnecessary.

I just reread the Ellimist Chronicles recently, and it really started to skeeve me about how many species die in that book. And they're like, not even important, because it's ELLIMIST and CRAYAK and so GRAND and EPIC. This is more a problem with Applegrant, but I felt like they were using multiple genocides as a cheap way to raise the stakes. It just felt really callous to me.

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

yeah I hear you. For a book series that seems to acknowledge the universe as something not ruled over by destiny or higher law, there are an AWFUL lot of instances where destiny and higher law play a stronger part than free will.

and what makes that part so much more annoying is how it seems V3/Elfangor had never even met in book 1 (though I like reading the "how nice to finally meet you" line as a pun...m-e-a-t...idk)

I think that is kind of a problem with the books overall, because even though species like Hork-Bajir and Taxxons are developed into somewhat dimensional races and made complex, their deaths still matter so much less than a human or Andalite. It's never really brought up concretely on a consistent enough basis that when the Animorphs kill some controller, they're killing the host, too.

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

Heh, there's so many little continuity errors in the first book. But that doesn't bother me so much, everything was still getting ironed out. Also, does Visser Three really engage in punning besides the notorious 'bite out of your enemies'? I can't remember. Although it would crack me up if he went round demanding his minions for good puns and then cutting their heads off if the puns were bad.

Yeah, the Hork-Bajir are often used as pawns in the storytelling for 'look how awful war is, see how they suffer' rather than characters in their own right (even in their own Chornicles!) And Taxxons we only really see sympathetically through an Andalite nothlit's eyes. I can see why the *characters* care more about humans/Andalites (it would be kinda weird if they didn't), but the story itself seems to endorse the atittude too.

I do think you're relatively aware that the hosts die along with the parasites, though. A lot of times it only comes up when they know the host personally (Eva, Tom) but I do think it's dealt with adequately. It's just that it's not dealt with in re: Hork-Bajir and Taxxons very much, imo.

(In re: killing hosts, there's a big theme of 'better free than dead,' and that's really not a decision you're entitled to make for someone else, but that's an entirely different discussion.)

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

yeah, I think it was actually that "better free than dead" thing that bothered me the most. Even if it was an overwhelming attitude, there's no way it could have been universal. It was kind of a cheap justification for essentially murdering an innocent who could not defend themselves. And don't get me wrong, it was a wonderfully sticky, morally ambiguous gray area but I feel like there should have been at least ONCE that they killed some host, the Yeerk abandoned them, and the host was like "you monsters did more harm to me than that Yeerk ever did." idk, the things we do in the name of good can be worse than the evil we fight.

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Speaking for myself, I *would* rather have lived if I'd been infested. At least then I had a hope of being free someday. (Also, this falls uneasily with KAA's hatred of suicide.) I mean, if the Animorphs all decide together that they would want to be killed if they get infested, good on them, but you just can't assume the value of freedom is constant from person to person. Value of life is subjective, and making decisions based on the assumption that ANYONE would rather be dead than x leads to not-good places. It's odd that this was never addressed when so many other issues with killing in war had been. (That said, I'm okay with killing hosts on the grounds that 'there's no other way,' honestly. It's the I-know-better-than-everyone-else-what-they-want that isn't good.)

The Andalites all committing suicide rather than to fall into Yeerk hands I don't mind so much because really, what other policy would the Andalite military promote? and besides the Andalites are supposed to be too obsessed with the glory of war for their own good anyway.

[lisacharly.livejournal.com]

The view on "free or dead" waffled back and forth though, honestly. I can think of a few instances where one of the kids, usually Cassie, reflects that the host's hope of freedom is gone, especially in #19. And I think it's Rachel (maybe Marco? I don't remember) who says something to the effect of "everyone knows that some life, even the worst kind of life, is better than no life at all".

But then there's of course the counterexamples like where Marco and Edriss talk about the NH license plates or Jara and Ket beating their chests chanting "free or die".

Can you point out any incidences where they use that as their justification for killing (I think they might have in #52?) over the "it's the only way" mentality?

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

lol I just realized "better free than dead" doesn't mean what I wanted it to.

"better dead than infested?"

[rayerai.livejournal.com]

I love AppleGrant for kind of subverting children's lit conventions like that.

And I love you for bringing it up!

[tobiahawk.livejournal.com]

I love Elfangor, not because he was a "perfect" hero, but because he was set up to be one and then wasn't--he knew it, but very few other people did. I think at the beginning of the Andalite Chronicles--which awesomely ended with a mediocre artish Elfangor losing a tail fight--we can see a lot of similarities between Ax and Elfangor--the same high-reaching dreams, he unspoken fear that they are out of reach, the idealism. The main difference, IMO, seems to be that Elfangor is more flexible than Ax--he fairly quickly accepts Loren as a (near) equal to example, while Ax generally remains somewhat aloof to humans--even the Animorphs--throughout most of the series. I have no doubt that some of this difference was for purely plot reasons, but it's still interesting to see the difference. In some ways, I think Ax's inflexibility protected him from the guilt Elfangor faced in that it kept him from "running away"--both literally and figuratively--as much as Elfangor did. And my g-d, Elfangor must have been saddled with guilt--guilt for leaving Loren and her son, guilt for helping (unwittingly) in Alloran's infestation, guilt over lying and being called a hero because of it, guilt over running from war, etc. (On a semi-related note, I always loved that he thought of Arboran as becoming the hero he "always wanted to be", while he doesn't see himself as much of a hero at all), etc. On the other hand, I think his happiness when he was human and/or with Loren greatly surpasses any degree of happiness we see in Ax over the series.

Does anyone else wonder about Elfangor's reliability as a narrator in the AC? Is it possible he's using the hirac delest as a way to relive his guilt before dying, a last confession of sorts? To have maintained the status he did as a warrior and legend, he must have done more great things than ram the Bladeship, yet he really doesn't seem to care about the positives, and seems to see the only positives as his wife and don, presumably the reason he kept fighting so hard to protect earth. And improbably or no, I thought it was only fair that he recognized Tobias in his final moments as who he was. I wonder if he had doubts about giving his child to a life as a warrior (which he disliked in the end), or if he just saw it as a way for Tobias to fulfill his duty as an Andalite.

I wonder if Ax would have respected Elfangor nearly as much had he heard the hirac delest, in all its imperfection.

Finally, the just awesome: Elfangor swiping at Visser 3 as Elfangor lays dying? Bad ass. The dying comfort Elfangor left Tobias in his DNA? Awesome. The letter he left Tobias? Also awesome. Elfangor/Loren? An amazing ship, second only to R/T for me--genuine and believably evolving. I think how much Elfangor cared about Tobias--a son he met only at his deathbed and only for an instant really shown through--and it was Elfangor's affection, not his heroism, that defined him for me.

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

Elfangor for sure accentuates the negative in his book. I think going through each book with the "unreliable narrator" magnifying glass would be fascinating. What details are they including to warp our perspective? What details are they leaving out?

and this line: and it was Elfangor's affection, not his heroism, that defined him for me. sums up his character beautifully. He was introduced to us as a somewhat shallow heroic type, but earned the title through his affectionate actions later on.

[mattiris.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting point about the narration. Before Andalite Chronicles came out, if you heard there was going to be a book about Elfangor, you'd assume it would be all the heroic stuff he did as an adult - but really, it's pretty much everything but.

Same as The Ellimist Chronicles I guess - everyone assumed that would be a book from the Ellimist's POV, but really the Ellimist as we know him only comes in towards the end of the book, and even then it's several million years before the time the series starts.

Interesting that both of those are fascinating stories in their own right but not the stories that people would expect to hear.

[geritar.livejournal.com]

I wish we HAD gotten a book about all the heroic stuff he did as an adult, though... just sayin. :X