Character Discussion: Elfangor

[buffyangellvr23.livejournal.com]

I don't think I got him yet. We only saw a little of him in book one, plus the special books had him. Andalite Chronicles especially. I sometimes wish the group had gotten a chance to know him better, that he'd been around longer, and not just because of Tobias.

Comments

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

It bothered me when Elfanor kept talking about how he knew he was predestined to be the enemy of Visser Three, from a storytelling standpoint. Come on! It's not like Elfangor and Visser Three wouldn't have hated each other without their ***cosmic destiny decreeing it so****, what with Visser Three taking Alloran as a host and all. It was unnecessary.

I just reread the Ellimist Chronicles recently, and it really started to skeeve me about how many species die in that book. And they're like, not even important, because it's ELLIMIST and CRAYAK and so GRAND and EPIC. This is more a problem with Applegrant, but I felt like they were using multiple genocides as a cheap way to raise the stakes. It just felt really callous to me.

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

yeah I hear you. For a book series that seems to acknowledge the universe as something not ruled over by destiny or higher law, there are an AWFUL lot of instances where destiny and higher law play a stronger part than free will.

and what makes that part so much more annoying is how it seems V3/Elfangor had never even met in book 1 (though I like reading the "how nice to finally meet you" line as a pun...m-e-a-t...idk)

I think that is kind of a problem with the books overall, because even though species like Hork-Bajir and Taxxons are developed into somewhat dimensional races and made complex, their deaths still matter so much less than a human or Andalite. It's never really brought up concretely on a consistent enough basis that when the Animorphs kill some controller, they're killing the host, too.

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

Heh, there's so many little continuity errors in the first book. But that doesn't bother me so much, everything was still getting ironed out. Also, does Visser Three really engage in punning besides the notorious 'bite out of your enemies'? I can't remember. Although it would crack me up if he went round demanding his minions for good puns and then cutting their heads off if the puns were bad.

Yeah, the Hork-Bajir are often used as pawns in the storytelling for 'look how awful war is, see how they suffer' rather than characters in their own right (even in their own Chornicles!) And Taxxons we only really see sympathetically through an Andalite nothlit's eyes. I can see why the *characters* care more about humans/Andalites (it would be kinda weird if they didn't), but the story itself seems to endorse the atittude too.

I do think you're relatively aware that the hosts die along with the parasites, though. A lot of times it only comes up when they know the host personally (Eva, Tom) but I do think it's dealt with adequately. It's just that it's not dealt with in re: Hork-Bajir and Taxxons very much, imo.

(In re: killing hosts, there's a big theme of 'better free than dead,' and that's really not a decision you're entitled to make for someone else, but that's an entirely different discussion.)

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

yeah, I think it was actually that "better free than dead" thing that bothered me the most. Even if it was an overwhelming attitude, there's no way it could have been universal. It was kind of a cheap justification for essentially murdering an innocent who could not defend themselves. And don't get me wrong, it was a wonderfully sticky, morally ambiguous gray area but I feel like there should have been at least ONCE that they killed some host, the Yeerk abandoned them, and the host was like "you monsters did more harm to me than that Yeerk ever did." idk, the things we do in the name of good can be worse than the evil we fight.

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Speaking for myself, I *would* rather have lived if I'd been infested. At least then I had a hope of being free someday. (Also, this falls uneasily with KAA's hatred of suicide.) I mean, if the Animorphs all decide together that they would want to be killed if they get infested, good on them, but you just can't assume the value of freedom is constant from person to person. Value of life is subjective, and making decisions based on the assumption that ANYONE would rather be dead than x leads to not-good places. It's odd that this was never addressed when so many other issues with killing in war had been. (That said, I'm okay with killing hosts on the grounds that 'there's no other way,' honestly. It's the I-know-better-than-everyone-else-what-they-want that isn't good.)

The Andalites all committing suicide rather than to fall into Yeerk hands I don't mind so much because really, what other policy would the Andalite military promote? and besides the Andalites are supposed to be too obsessed with the glory of war for their own good anyway.

[lisacharly.livejournal.com]

The view on "free or dead" waffled back and forth though, honestly. I can think of a few instances where one of the kids, usually Cassie, reflects that the host's hope of freedom is gone, especially in #19. And I think it's Rachel (maybe Marco? I don't remember) who says something to the effect of "everyone knows that some life, even the worst kind of life, is better than no life at all".

But then there's of course the counterexamples like where Marco and Edriss talk about the NH license plates or Jara and Ket beating their chests chanting "free or die".

Can you point out any incidences where they use that as their justification for killing (I think they might have in #52?) over the "it's the only way" mentality?

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

I think it's Rachel in 17, when they're saving that guy from suicide. And yeah, I was thinking of the NH license plates too, and I think there's one part in 6 when Marco says something to the effect of 'We all agreed: better die than become a Controller.' (Although, the Animorphs are a special case, considering they basically *have* to kill themselves for the good of humanity so their secrets don't get out, regardless of value-of-life issues).

Oh, I don't know that they actually *do* use that as their justification over utilitarian calculus. I mean, it's not like they go around killing every Controller they know to free them from the Yeerks, which would be the logical endpoint of 'free or dead' logic expanded universally. It's the way they hold up this sort of attitude toward infestation as the ideal that sort of bugs me (i.e., all the characters were supposed to admire feel this way.) And it's been so long since I read the final arc.

[natural-blue-26.livejournal.com]

Whoops, you beat me while I had to look it up! ;)

Isn't it more A Hork Bajr thing that the Anis adopt from time to time, anyways?

[natural-blue-26.livejournal.com]

"How big a moron do you have to be not to figure out that if that at least if you stay alive you have some hope as oppoosed to being dead and having zero?" -Rachel, #17 ;)

[lisacharly.livejournal.com]

That's not the one I was thinking of, but it's true! Good find! I'm pretty sure Marco gives off a similar statement at some point mid-series, despite being all "kill me if they try to infest me dude" in #1.

[natural-blue-26.livejournal.com]

Do you mean DUN DUN DUN after he finds out about Eva, perhaps? ;)

[lisacharly.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think it was less to do with that (though that probably factored in) than with the fact that in #1, he hadn't really reckoned with the chance at dying like he had by mid-series. Like, it's easy to say "better dead than..." if you've never actually come close to death.

BUT THEN AGAIN I MAY BE TOTALLY HALLUCINATING THIS QUOTE.

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

I just looked through the scene where Marco finds out about his mom and couldn't find anything. I really can't see Marco wanting to die, though, when it comes down to it. Especially how, in the beginning, he was the most afraid of dying of all of them. This may just be me but he doesn't have that kamikaze attitude like Rachel does.

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

Ah ha! Found it. From 5, right after they caught by Visser Three:

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Ah ha! Found it. From 5, right after they caught by Visser Three:

<We're better off making a run for it!> Rachel said.

<It would be suicide,> I said. <As long as we're alive, there's hope.>

[lisacharly.livejournal.com]

Yay! I'm not crazy! I've been going through #5 with a fine-tooth comb for an art project and haven't gotten to the V3 scenes yet, but I KNEW he said something to that effect. Thanks!

And yeah, Marco totally doesn't want to die. There are times in the series where he's willing to sacrifice himself for the good of team/mission/cause, but he's definitely the highest Ani on the self-preservation side. Pretty much a huge reason he's still on the team in #3 is because he thinks they'll all get caught and thus get him caught.

...And also Elfangor was cool. Didn't mean to drag this into a Marco discussion.

Mostly what I'm saying is that they tend to waffle on it. And the Anis do seem to make a conscious effort not to kill when possible, at least not human-Controllers. They poke out a lot of eyeballs and hack off a lot of fingers, but it's not until like, #51 that we see any of them actually target and kill a human on-page. So if they really subscribed to "better free than dead", they'd have probably done a lot more killing.

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

What kind of art project?

Exactly. That's one of the reasons I always liked Marco, for I am a coward. :)

yeah, off topic is off topic.

Yeah, you're right, it's not a constant thing. But that just makes the scenes where they *do* pull it out sort of weird. There's just this tension that's never really explicitly dealt with, I suppose.

Plus, they still hold human life to a higher standard than Hork-Bajir/Taxxon. Which I can understand - it really wouldn't be realistic another way - but it's still rather sketchy.

[lisacharly.livejournal.com]

I'm doing a comic book version of #5 to get me back into doing art. It's actually hella fun. I'm nine pages in so far, but some of them aren't loaded yet, and I haven't uploaded the ones Dovelina lettered for me (I want to wait until I'm over halfway done with the book before I start officially putting them somewhere). Some of the unlettered pages are on my DA (http://hotpinkcoffee.deviantart.com/), though.

It's totally sketchy, but I guess that's just what kids do. Or what humans do. Hell, here in the US we report military deaths in terms of how many Americans die - having something in common automatically moves someone up our priority list. It's definitely unfair, but possibly how our brains work.

[ghaweyriao.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's it. I also recall KAA echoing this sentiment on the 'Ask KAA' thing. (Does anyone remember the URL?) She was really . . . harsh about it too. Like, 'after you die, there is NOTHING, child. You will be SUCKED into the VOID of NOTHINGNESS, so you better not commit SUICIDE like an IDIOT.'

This CAPITALIZATION is for EMPHASIS, BITCH.

[geritar.livejournal.com]

so perhaps that's why they kept David alive? D:

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

lol I just realized "better free than dead" doesn't mean what I wanted it to.

"better dead than infested?"