Asexuality in Animorphs...

[with-rainfall.livejournal.com]

What do people think about ace characters in Animorphs? (For clarity's sake I'm using "asexual" as the umbrella term to encompass greysexual, demisexual etc. You can find more information at aven-wiki or the main AVEN site.) 

Anyone have weird and wonderful theories, rants, discussions and/or headcanons (AU or canonical)? Or fics they are dying to see, or recommendations? If you haven't read Primeideal's Morphs and Magnets, I highly recommend it.

Comments

[swankivy.livejournal.com]

Can't think of any. All the major characters seemed pretty traditional when it came to relationships, as far as I remember, but since it was a kids' book, they wouldn't have been discussing sexual attraction, so for all we know some of the romantic relationships were ace. ;) The ones whose sexual attractions/interests weren't discussed were just that--not discussed. I don't remember any scenes where someone was in a position to express that sort of attraction and just didn't. (I kinda hate it when a character is pointed out as possibly being asexual just because a book doesn't happen to focus on their attractions or romances. I do think it's worth mentioning if there's a situation in which most people would respond to romantic attention a certain way--or express attraction--and didn't do so.)

[bdoing.livejournal.com]

My headcanon is that Marco's homoromantic and asexual (maybe grey-A/demi?) but really deep in the closet and so overcompensates to try to convince himself.

[felinephoenix.livejournal.com]

I think we've talked about this before, but Marco gives off an overcompensating vibe to me too, even if I'm not sure how to categorize him.

(Hi, it's i-wakeupstrange on Tumblr!)

[blue_rampion]

For the main kids, I've never really had the sense that any of them are asexual. Although, you could possibly make an argument for Rachel and/or Tobias - after all, sex would be kiiiiinda tricky what with Tobias almost always being a bird, but we don't see anything that suggests that that strains on the relationship. Course, that could just be because the series is aimed at children and any real discussion of sex is off the table. Outside of the Animorphs, the Yeerks as a species probably count as 'asexual', since sex is something that only a few of them actually do and it does result in, you know, death. But that's more of a whole different framework of sexuality that's outside of what we encounter in human sexuality.

Course, asexuality in fiction is...tricky. How can you tell the difference between a character who is asexual, and a character who we just never have the opportunity to see any kind of romantic leanings or sexuality for? Not to mention since most people don't even register that asexuality exists, most authors don't either. And in fiction, it seems that a lack of interest in sex always paired with highly 'abnormal' characters - Sherlock Holmes, the Doctor, etc. They are amazing characters, certainly, but they are not normal, and I can't think of any example where just a normal, average person happens to be asexual. It's always something other, something that further highlights a character's oddity. Which possibly factors into the Yeerk's kind of asexuality - they are parasitic brain slugs, so that just further highlights how 'other' they are.

[felinephoenix.livejournal.com]

Even the Yeerks are a little complicated! Most of them seem to fit into an asexual sort of grouping, but then you have outliers like the Yeerk relationship in #8 and Edriss' complicated feelings for Essam/Hildy and Allison Kim which were at least a romantic in nature.

Oh, KAA. Sneaking a canon foursome into children's literature. Good job.

But as you said, the Yeerks are operating on an entirely different framework. It feels wrong to slap a human label onto them. They don't even have a gender -- and gender's such a huge part of human society!

Also, I agree with your point that asexuality seems reserved for 'abnormal' characters. It's rather annoying. Tobias would fit into that category, too, if he were canonically ace which is why I'm actually glad that's not canon (though as I said in my comment it's an interpretation that matches up very well with what we see in the books).

[with-rainfall.livejournal.com]

How can you tell the difference between a character who is asexual, and a character who we just never have the opportunity to see any kind of romantic leanings or sexuality for?

You often can't, and this is where headcanon comes in. I think swankivy raises a good point, though, in that sometimes people are too quick to confuse the two and attribute lack of romance for that character to asexuality. Which is a fair point for a series like Animorphs, since it was both a kids' book and set in the 90s, when even discussion of homosexuality was controversial, let alone asexuality, transgender and genderqueer issues.

[errorsign.livejournal.com]

The trick here is that for most of the series, the main cast is in the age range for puberty, but their lives are so busy that they never quite care to bring it up, so it is reasonable to assume that in book 1, none of them have actually had puberty yet, while by the end of 54 they all had. There are some intense emotional experiences (Marco's monologue about anger in 15, Rachel's dialogue in 32 about herself, Jake's near death in 16, every Tobias book about his identity) that would be considered a puberty surge to a normal person, but are taken in context of the war instead. While I would classify sex as an instinct, I classify romantic affection (love) as something taught/learned. With the exception of Jake and Cassie's conversation in 53, I'd say the entire cast does this learning off-book, if at all.

Sex just doesn't factor into their lives as lived. Had they all been seniors in high school, yeah, then I see sex, along with other 'normal' things like jobs and independance being a factor in their lives. But they got involved in the war before they finished growing up, so naturally it consumed their lives (Rachel in 7 brings up life after the war, and then it sits until Jake and Cassie in 53).

It might not be fair to say they're asexual, because I don't believe they ever got the chance to learn about sexuality. (arranged) married to their jobs, almost.

[felinephoenix.livejournal.com]

This is a very good point. The kids' involvement in the war has stunted what we'd call "normal" development. Think about it: even if they were at the age to start doing regular teen things like dating or working part-time or whatever, could they? In 20, Marco laments that he can't date -- how could he be sure his girlfriend wasn't a Controller? And by 45, forget it, he's not meeting anyone while hiding out in the woods. (No wonder he dates so many women in 54. He's making up for lost time.)

And let's not even touch on Ax and Tobias. They're both ripped apart from their culture at the peak of adolescence. It's going to be hard for any girl after Rachel to put up with Tobias' lacking social graces. Ax's brief fling with Estrid wasn't exactly normal to begin with and it's definitely influenced by the human behavior he's been absorbing. It wasn't Estrid's idea that they kiss, after all. At least he has the whole War-Prince thing working for him after the war...

tl;dr: It's worth nothing that the only person who has a normal relationship post-war is Cassie. Whose relationship with Jake was intense (because it's war) but relatively normal.

[1111-am.livejournal.com]

I'd say Erek was asexual :P

[with-rainfall.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, I agree. :D That actually brings up really interesting questions for me about Chee relationships, but that's a story for another thread.

[rattyjol.livejournal.com]

Of the main characters, Tobias is really the only one I could see being asexual. Jake, Cassie, Ax, and Marco we saw all being sexually attracted in the books. Rachel I'm pretty sure we've never actually seen sexually attracted to anyone (does that celebrity with three names count?), but I have trouble seeing her as ace. But I think Tobias could easily be hetero/biromantic and asexual, especially after spending so long as a hawk. I might elaborate on this more tomorrow when it's not four in the morning.

[felinephoenix.livejournal.com]

Oh, this is a topic made for me.

My most persistent headcanon is that, generally, Ax is heteroromantic but his human morph is bisexual. Which as you can imagine is incredibly confusing and complicated. I don't know, the explanation that "Phillip" had absolute no attraction to guys (despite sharing Cassie and Rachel's DNA!) never worked for me.

And Marco has always struck me as flexible. I could buy that he has an unrequited/unacknowledged crush on Jake. Plus, he can't shut up about how pretty Ax is. Though that last part is true of all of them... hell, I think the guys whine about it more than the girls.

Forgot to add: I'd never considered Tobias asexual before but that fic has made me reconsider. He is very Rachel-focused to the point where him being demisexual or Grey-A for her would make a lot of sense.

[joking.livejournal.com]

I don't know, the explanation that "Phillip" had absolute no attraction to guys (despite sharing Cassie and Rachel's DNA!) never worked for me.

I feel obligated to point out that no one really knows what the genetic basis for homosexuality/bisexuality/etc. is. In fact, we don't have any solid proof that there's a genetic basis at all (though we have reason to believe that there is one). I speak as a biologist who has several friends who do research in this field.

In any case, you're implicitly adopting the gynophilic/androphilic model, which is that biology determines whether you are attracted to men, women, or somewhere in between, as opposed to the heterosexual/homosexual model, that biology determines whether you're heterosexual, homosexual, or somewhere in between. Supposing all the human Animorphs are heterosexual, if the gynophilic/androphilic model is true, then you would expect Ax to be bisexual. But if the heterosexual/homosexual model is true, you would expect him to be straight.

But we don't know whether either model is true, so we can't say.

[tobiahawk.livejournal.com]

I could buy Tobias as demi-sexual/asexual. I also think he had a bit of crush on Jake in book one, though that could just be non-romantic hero worship.

[primeideal (from livejournal.com)]

So, the irony here is that my fic has apparently influenced people but it wasn't my prompt at all. Animorphs was never a fandom I really thought about in terms of asexuality and stuff because there was no mention either way--I guess the lack of focus on sex is something I'm used to and appreciate.

[felinephoenix.livejournal.com]

I guess the lack of focus on sex is something I'm used to and appreciate.

Yeah. I get that feeling.

I wonder if the fic started all this discussion because it tapped into something in the text? As I said, Tobias seems to only have eyes for one person, and that's Rachel. It may not have been your prompt but I think it's a very plausible interpretation of Rachel/Tobias as an ace or mixed-sexual relationship, as well as Tobias as an asexual character.

[with-rainfall.livejournal.com]

It's not your prompt, but as felinephoenix pointed out, you've claimed it and done a convincing job of it. :)
I didn't mean to single you out, or your fic. It's just that ace fics are rare in most fandoms, except Sherlock. It's really refreshing to see one in Ani-fandom.

Do you mean the lack of sex in fandom or canon?

[sherrilina.livejournal.com]

I don't think Tobias was asexual, he clearly yearned for Rachel, even if he couldn't act on it! And likewise with Rachel...

IA with what someone said before, the only characters I really see as asexual are Erek, and maybe Visser Three, lol. I think most Yeerks are probably asexual (given their method of reproducing), but perhaps being in humans can influence them--do we know of any examples of Yeerk romance besides ones in human hosts? :s

[felinephoenix.livejournal.com]

Do we know of any examples of Yeerk romance besides ones in human hosts?

You know, I can't think of any. That's a good point, maybe the human hosts contribute to those relationships becoming more romantic. I mean, I'm sure Yeerks must have their own ways of showing affection, but...

[rattyjol.livejournal.com]

Well I don't know about romance, but it's been about a generation and a half since the Yeerks took over the Hork-Bajir, and longer since the Gedds and Taxxons. They must have had a way of reproducing the hosts somehow.

And it seems like the Yeerks tend to take on the gender identity of their host. Esplin is referred to as a male and Edriss female, though that might just be KAA trying to make the narration simpler. I don't know if that transfers over into sexuality, but it's something to think about.

[amusesme.livejournal.com]

I've always wondered about the characters and their sexuality because it's a topic that fascinates me endlessly.

I see Rachel as a very physical person. I imagine she expresses herself physically in most situations (do we remember when she shoved a fork into David's ear?), so of course her affection would ALSO be physical. We do see tender moments between Tobias and Rachel, where she is softer. But overall, I get the sense that Rachel is frustrated with Tobias--not because he is lacking love or affection-- but because he refuses to live in a physical human body. This is IMPORTANT to Rachel.

Tobias is almost completely opposite in this regard. He lives mostly in his head. I feel like he has an entire world of inner-thought that most people don't experience. To him, expressing his love for Rachel physically is not important. The time we see them kiss is after he's been tortured, and also after he thinks Rachel is dead. These are exceptional moments, where an outward expression of his affection is necessary. It's not something he NORMALLY would do.

There is no doubt that Tobias has great love for Rachel. Rachel also has great love for Tobias. However, I have trouble seeing their relationship as sexual. For this reason, I believe Rachel would not have been able to keep a healthy or stable relationship with Tobias post-war, had she lived.

None of the characters have very normal interactions when it comes to attraction. They put so many of their human emotions and experiences aside for the sake of the war. They are soldiers first, teenagers second. I find this both tragic and wildly interesting. I love to think about the times they may have slipped and done something stupidly normal like stupid teenagers often do. Especially when it comes to sexual attraction. I CAN'T HELP IT I'M SORRY.

[felinephoenix.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I have anything to add. You've basically said everything I was thinking, with better wording. Except that their differences in this regard is part of what fascinates me about Rachel and Tobias. I get the feeling that, even if he were a fully human boy, he wouldn't be the most physically affectionate. Whereas Rachel is all about the physical.

You're right, it's a difference they probably can't reconcile. If it were the real world, I'd be like: "You guys should probably break up before someone gets hurt."

But it's fiction and so I'm addicted to the tension. Alas.

Though, to be fair, Tobias definitely checks Rachel out with his hawk eyes. So I don't think he's entirely urge-free. Just not as open about it as, say, Marco.

[embergryphon.livejournal.com]

Okay, I haven't read the fic, and also I'm pansexual and therefore really don't have much frame of reference for truly and deeply understanding aexuality, so if I come across as crazy ignorant in anything I say I am so sorry. ;-;

I don't know that any of them come across as having been born asexual- they all have their crushes in the first few books and their developing interests in, seemingly exclusively, the opposite sex. I think there is merit to the Tobias-has-a-crush-on-Jake and also perhaps the Marco-has-a-crush-on-Jake theories, and my personal fanon is its own twisted thing, but all we know explicitly from the books as of Invasion-time is that Tobias might have a bit of a crush on Rachel, Jake has a definite crush on Cassie, Cassie is definitely into Jake, and Marco thinks Rachel and about forty of his female classmates are going to be open to his failures at flirting.

But what fascinates me about the Tobias-asexuality idea is that he never actually goes through puberty. So during all the years where his teenage human body would be flooding him with hormones and his brain would be changing to accomodate them, he has... the hormonal/instinctual impulses of an adult male red-tailed hawk. When he gets his human body back, he's been mentally/emotionally around for... 14-ish years, and gets his thirteen-year-old body back. When the woman he loves dies, he's been around for 16 years, and he has access to a 13 year old human body. When he dies, he's been around for 19 years, and he has access to a 13 year old human body. His voice never changes. He never has to shave. There are a lot of... firsts, that he presumably never has. So while he might mentally know what he is supposed to feel, want, and pursue, I kind of have to agree that... I can't imagine those feelings and desires being second-nature, feeling natural, to him. What's there will always be the awkward, uncomfortable wants and feelings of a 13-year-old boy. (And to be fair, canon-wise, it's kind of implied a few times that they might not be natural to him. He's made very uncomfortable/uneasy by Rachel teasing him about being a "peeping Tom" in Pretender; disproportionately so, and he identifies his own reaction as strange. He marvels over how beautiful Rachel is, but- I think it's in the same book- he also has this wonderful passage where he talks about how captivating watching her turn into an eagle is. He's not any more attracted to her in that form, he says, because her eagle morph is a male and his red-tail instincts aren't into that, and also because he's not that far gone native, but it is a powerful little moment of insight into how he feels about her, and the strength of his admiration for her bravery/strength over the strength of his physical attraction to her.) If Tobias is sexual, I consider his sexuality to be underdeveloped, more like fleeting schoolboy crushes, while his intellectual capacity for romantic attraction is much more refined.

By contrast, I don't see Rachel as asexual at all. I mean, in the Starfish Book, she legitimately is preeeetty much attracted to every male in a 3-mile radius. She wants to be a hero, kick ass, be strong and powerful, prove her bravery, save the earth, and she also wants what most straight girls want from a pretty boy when they're teenagers- to hold hands and kiss and go to the movies and be close and maybe start with the whole sex thing. It's why she wants, so badly, for Tobias to give up being a hawk and become human. She needs things from him, and it frustrates her that he doesn't seem to share those needs.

And THAT is one of the reasons why I love post-war AU Rachel x Tobias fics. Because if they had both lived, it would have been such a beautiful train wreck.

[joking.livejournal.com]

I don't know that any of them come across as having been born asexual- they all have their crushes in the first few books and their developing interests in, seemingly exclusively, the opposite sex.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're asexual, I feel obligated to point out. Asexuals can still have romantic feelings, and therefore have crushes.

[yunie1281.livejournal.com]

What makes me wonder about Rachel is the fact that she knowingly chose to pursue a relationship with someone whose human morph (that he never uses) is thirteen. That's a pretty big guarantee that things are going to stay mostly platonic.

[mattiris.livejournal.com]

Just thought it warrants a mention that we don't know for sure that Tobias' human morph never aged. There's nothing said about it in the series, and Applegrant said a few months back that they'd never even considered the whole situation. So while it would seem that his morph would be forever 13, there's nothing that could have prevented it somehow ageing normally - or given the unusual circumstances of how it was acquired, I could easily buy Ellimist intervention that ensures his morph age is "up to date", so to speak.

[yunie1281.livejournal.com]

There's nothing to indicate either way but morphs don't age while they stay morphs. The Animorphs never had to deal with any of their morphs, even the short-lived ones who don't even have a three-year lifespan, changing at all. When the DNA is acquired it's frozen in time and they always return to that morph.

I'm sure that the Ellimist *could* have magically made it so that his morph aged as well but why would he? So it's less weird when Tobias and Rachel make out? That seems a little unnecessary.

And the fact that it's never mentioned that this happens is key, I think. If Tobias always morphs his thirteen-year-old self then there's no need to mention it because that makes sense. He acquired his thirteen-year-old self and so keeps morphing that. If for some reason he started morphing fourteen, fifteen, and sixteen-year-old Tobias then there's no way that wouldn't have gotten a mention because it would have turned the rules of morphing on its head for everyone and they spend time freaking out about far less important things that morphs aging.