[identity profile] yunie1281.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] animorphslj
One of the many, many things that 54 never got into was what really happened to the Yeerks at the end of the war.

We know that those on Earth have the opportunity to become nothlits but I can't imagine that all of them wanted to. And what happened to them?

Were they forced to leave Earth? Were little Yeerk pools built to accomodate them? Were they allowed to take voluntary hosts?

Personally, I always imagined that they became nothlits or were booted off the planet. Once the war is over they aren't really in a position to force their presence anymore and I can easily see Congress or the President or the Supreme Court (or all of them) outlawing Controllers and then none of the other countries really wanting to be the one to accept Yeerks after what happened and given that they had an alternative.

America is a country where the government can tell you you're not allowed to ingest certain products, you must wear a seat belt, you are not allowed to sleep with or marry certain people, you are not allowed to have contact with certain people, you must attend school until a certain age, you must give some of your money to the government...It doesn't feel like I live in a very controlling country but then sometimes it occurs to me that if I wanted to take my life in my hands and not wear a seat belt then it really shouldn't be anybody else's business.

Would a country that forces you to wear a seat belt (at least in certain states) really allow people to share their bodies? Even if it isn't the governments business, they will make it their business and take a stance.

And I can't even find myself disagreeing with them. On the hand, people should have the right to do what they want as long as it isn't hurting others but on the other...the idea just freaks me out. I don't think I'd be able to handle talking to somebody if I knew they were a voluntary Controller. If they just switched in a conversation...creepy. And even if it would only be a few people at the start, it seems like in a few generations *everybody* would be doing it. It would be as if the Animorphs lost the war and over time the Yeerk Peace Movement spread across the Empire.

And then there's the huge potential for abuse. Sure the Yeerk is *supposed* to not control you when you don't want to be controlled but at the end of the day it's the one with the power and is allowing the time-share. If you two disagree, who wins? The Yeerk...unless it lets you win. What if it wants you to do something "for your own good"? Even if it really is for your own good, that still seems too much. Or  maybe it's going to force you to do something horrible and there's nothing you can do.

Sure at that point when you went in for a feeding you could complain and get rid of the Yeerk but the damage is still done. And what if they find a way to access a Kandrona at a non-approved place and you don't get the chance? There could be secret involuntary Controllers around. And given enough time...who knows? It may be unlikely but just that possibility is too much for me. Plus it's not like infesting others is their only choice anymore and if they'd miss their hosts then there's nothing stopping them from spending all of their time with their former hosts once they become nothlits.

I just don't really see constant companionship as a plus and all of the other so-called benefits don't seem to outweigh the risks.



So that's my take on what happens after the war ends and I've yet to find someone who agrees with it but that's okay. I'm used to having strange opinions.

Other thoughts on the future of the Yeerks?

Date: 2012-05-02 02:22 am (UTC)
ext_442164: Colourful balloons (SPN - "I'm the one who gripped you tight)
From: [identity profile] with-rainfall.livejournal.com
I haven't even read 54, but I doubt the Andalites would take the chance of allowing Yeerks access to Kandrona rays/hosts on Earth and risking another invasion. I think it more likely they were all forced to become nothlits whether they wanted to or not. Maybe those who didn't want to were allowed to return to the Yeerk homeworld (since I think the Andalites had cordoned it off by this point) and the Yeerk pool?

Re: Brilliant!

Date: 2012-05-02 03:10 am (UTC)
ext_442164: Colourful balloons (Default)
From: [identity profile] with-rainfall.livejournal.com
And then there's the huge potential for abuse.
Yeah, that's an excellent point. Some Yeerks in the Peace Movement obviously want to live peaceably with voluntary hosts, but there's so many opportunities for things to go wrong. What if the human host suddenly freaks out after years and decides they don't want an alien slug in their body after all? What if a Yeerk goes all power-hungry (or, worse, has good intentions, supposedly in the name of the "Peace Movement") and thinks the rest of his species should enjoy the privilege of infestation?

I don't think the Andalites really gave a crap about the Yeerks tbh.

Re: Brilliant!

Date: 2012-05-02 04:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] natural-blue-26.livejournal.com
I don't think the Andalites really gave a crap about the Yeerks tbh.

Overall? Hells yes.

Re: Brilliant!

Date: 2012-05-02 04:36 am (UTC)
ext_442164: Colourful balloons (Default)
From: [identity profile] with-rainfall.livejournal.com
Hells yes they did or hells yes they didn't?

Also, I should probably actually cite the post and the user I got that opinion from. (Yes, I am a Bad Historian. D:)
By the way, this post is talking about why the Andalites didn't just 'dissolve' the Yeerks via a Quantum Virus.

http://animorphsfanforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2822

by capnnerefir » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:46 am
From this, we can conclude that the Andalite high-command didn't give half a tail-shake what happened to anyone but the Andalites (unless, of course, they got caught).

So, for that reason, I think that any objection raised on moral grounds is invalid in this situation, since that wouldn't factor into the thoughts of the War Council. While the average Andalite would probably be appalled (as they were with the Hork-bajir incident), the ones making the call would be more than happy to scratch off the entire Yeerk race. Genocide would be a-okay by them.


---

So, basically the Andalite higher-ups would've wanted the Yeerks dead, and to hell with any of those who happened to be peaceful or unwilling.

Re: Brilliant!

Date: 2012-05-03 01:57 am (UTC)
ext_442164: Colourful balloons (Default)
From: [identity profile] with-rainfall.livejournal.com
Oh wait, yeah, good point. I realise my previous post was unrelated, because the Andalites weren't trying to exterminate the Yeerks in 54, they were trying to stop their invasion of Earth. They wanted all the Yeerks dealt with, is probably more accurate. But anyway, I agree. I can’t see them just... leaving humans to deal with the remaining Yeerks by themselves.

This is a guess, but maybe there's a sense of race-guilt about the Yeerk invasion that won’t allow the Andalites to consider alternatives? Like, "We screwed up with Seerow's Kindness, now we need to fix this whole invasion before it gets out of hand.”
There's a lot of history there, and strong resentment on both sides, that IMO doesn't allow the Yeerk/Andalite relationship to be anything but that of sworn enemies. I think a lot of Andalites would've been brainwashed into an anti-Yeerk mindset because of that (and vice versa).
If Andalites (as a society) had acknowledged that Yeerks were an intelligent, sentient race who were capable of peaceful coexistence, compassion, etc., it would've needed the Andalites to step back and admit that hey, Yeerks might actually have some reason for infesting other species. I think it was much easier to other (”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other”) the Yeerks, like “OMG they’re evil technology-stealing parasites who’re trying to take over the world!”, than try to understand their motives. Of course, as people have pointed out on TV Tropes, the Yeerks could’ve handled their conquest very differently and much less antagonistically. I like nyxelestia's suggestion of Iskoort-type symbiosis, for example.

Following on from that, I can't see the military Andalites (whom I imagine would be very conservative, much like military leaders on Earth), embracing the idea of voluntary hosts. They'd see it as a horrible fate because they themselves wouldn't be able to bear the idea of being Controllers. So their mindset would be "All Yeerks are bad, they need to be dealt with as efficiently as possible." I don't even know if it crossed their minds that some Yeerks and humans might be okay with voluntary hosting. Or if it did, they didn't care. Obviously that sucks for the Yeerks as a whole, but… these are Andalites we're talking about.
Does canon say how much impact the Animorphs had in deciding what happened to the Yeerks?

And they haven't trusted anyone at all with anything since Seerow.

I don’t know that Seerow had much to do with it… I think that law about Seerow’s Kindness was more to do with not passing on state secrets/classified technology. And maybe they loosened up a bit, because according to Wikipedia they href=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beginning_(Animorphs)”> gave humans a single Escafil device against terrorism.
Edited Date: 2012-05-03 01:59 am (UTC)

Re: Brilliant!

Date: 2012-05-03 10:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] natural-blue-26.livejournal.com
I could definitely see a higher-up making call. Now that, there, would be truely chilling fic -_^

Off topic

Date: 2012-05-02 04:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] natural-blue-26.livejournal.com
Holy Toledo if you haven't read 54 you really need to stop reading my fic! D:

Re: Off topic

Date: 2012-05-02 04:29 am (UTC)
ext_442164: Colourful balloons (Default)
From: [identity profile] with-rainfall.livejournal.com
Oh, I know what happens in 54 (looked it up on Wikipedia). I just can't get access to the actual books because the stupid public library only has the first six or something... :(
Yeah, I wouldn't have been able to wait anyway: I was too happy about the awesome fandom people and rediscovering all the characters and such. XD I knew perfectly well there'd be spoilers in this comm and I'm fine with it, LOL.

Re: Off topic

Date: 2012-05-03 08:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] natural-blue-26.livejournal.com
Ahhhhhh okay. (I actually was spoiled online before I found a copy of the book originally back in the day too because I couldn't wait to find out what happened... And sob in the bookstore ANYWAYS lol.)

I can't remember/name names but there are people in the comm who have all the books in electronic format from before the rerelease. (There were sites that used to have all of them uploaded but when Scholastic decided to rerelease they took them down per request if I remember correctly.) Maybe you'll luck out and someone might see this comment and shoot you a line? -_^

Re: Off topic

Date: 2012-05-04 08:10 am (UTC)
ext_442164: Colourful balloons (Default)
From: [identity profile] with-rainfall.livejournal.com
Nah, I'd rather buy them. XD Even secondhand off Ebay. I can't bear the thought of pirating this series... D:

Re: Off topic

Date: 2012-05-04 08:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] natural-blue-26.livejournal.com
Ahhhhh, gotcha. I think that originally came about because even though a lot of us owned most (or all in some cases) of the series along the way, x many years later people were short some or all the books/when they weren't being published they were a lot harder to come by.

Date: 2012-05-02 08:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] famine.livejournal.com
Firstly, America isn't the whole world, so there are many other cultures to consider. I don't imagine anyone would really want brain-controlling alien slugs around, but it's something to think about.

Secondly, not wearing your seatbelt actually does endanger others. ;)

Re: Unfortunate Implications

Date: 2012-05-02 04:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] famine.livejournal.com
Yeah no I did see that wasn't your intent, I was just pointing out that there might be other places for them to go. I doubt any country is going to welcome Yeerks, but it seems that perhaps countries with more lawlessness might be ideal for Yeerks to hide in. There's likely to be illegal immigrant situations except with Yeerks, maybe? Hell, some countries might welcome them just to take a pop at America.

I couldn't be bothered to dig around for actual statistics, but I always thought this advert says it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKHY69AFstE

Date: 2012-05-02 07:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] joking.livejournal.com
I actually read this interesting Inception/Animorphs crossover fic set post-54 in which there was a system through which voluntary hosts would "contract out" Yeerks for their own advantage, which if you think about it makes sense. A Yeerk can control functions that are involuntary in humans, like breathing and heartbeat. A cooperative Yeerk could double your thought-processing power, because both the host's and the Yeerk's brains could be put to the same problem at the same time. So if you're, say, a point man for dream heists, or a soldier or something, you might want to hire a Yeerk, as long as the Yeerk is held accountable for its compliance with the contract every time it goes back for feeding.

EDIT: Here it is (http://cthonical.livejournal.com/97227.html?thread=1362379#t1362379).
Edited Date: 2012-05-02 07:41 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-05-02 10:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nyxelestia.livejournal.com
why and how the Yeerks were given legal permission to infest people

How much will legality matter?

Recreational marijuana is still illegal in the U.S., yet at my school it was easier to acquire than tobacco and alcohol. Sometimes cheaper, too. Prostitution is illegal outside of Nevada (and one other state, Rhode Island I think?), and yet in my middle school in Oregon I knew girls already getting into it. When that same middle school tried to ban hugs, for two weeks straight everyone hugged each other constantly until the school gave up trying.

It's not a matter of legality, at least not that alone. There are a lot of other factors involved.
From: [identity profile] nyxelestia.livejournal.com
Not wearing a seatbelt actually does endanger others. It has to do with the speed the car goes. A lot of other countries get away with not having seatbelt laws either because a.) there are so many other causes of car-related deaths that seatbelts don't statistically register, or b.) it's rare for people to drive at such speeds where not wearing a seatbelt becomes a problem. But in the U.S. we go up to those speeds all the time, so it would be a huge problem for us if we collectively didn't wear seatbelts.

Also, while I don't think you were meaning anything by it, the way you phrased your issues with Yeerks is kind of similar to a lot of the arguments used for homophobia and gender discrimination. Like, okay, a Yeerk/Controller freaks you out, but why does that give you the right to decide for someone whether or not to allow them to take on a Yeerk/become a Controller? A lot of people are freaked out by gays and homosexuality, but that doesn't really give them the right to decide if someone else should have a gay marriage or not.

If someone is voluntarily becoming a Controller, presumably they already know that the Yeerk in their head is going to have ultimate power, at least for three days. Humans already (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_%28BDSM%29#Total_power_exchange) voluntarily enter these kinds of relationships with each other. I can see some people wanting to voluntarily become a host. There is a lot of room for abuse in this system, but there's a lot of room for abuse in any system, and we put in measures to overcome that (whether they work or not is another story).

If they just switched in a conversation...creepy.

I had so much fun with people like you during my mischievous/prankster days. ;) No, seriously, I did this sort of thing quite a bit as a kid...

Anyway!

Remember, even a Yeerk's ultimate power over a Host is limited - they still have to feed every three days. If a human is have problems with their Yeerk, in three days they will be free and can either not become a Host again or try another Yeerk. Yes, obviously, there's a lot of damage that's possible in just three days - but at the systemic level, how likely is it? And what are they going to do? Realistically, Yeerks need to invade and take over other species because they need hosts/bodies, but if they can get it without invasion, will they (again, systemically) really have much reason to be evil? Most likely they will just want to live their relative lives out normally. In the short run, yeah, taking control over your human sounds great instead of sharing the body with them, but in the long run it would be beneficial for Yeerks to just agree to a timeshare with the body and be done with it, or wait until they get a person who's willing to give up their bodies entirely.

Another thing to consider, actually: what if Yeerks morphed and became Nothlits...and in turn became hosts themselves? It would create a type of symbiotic species system, much like the Iskoort.
From: [identity profile] nyxelestia.livejournal.com
There are a lot of ways to handle Yeerks - create an Iskoort system for them, voluntary hosts (total and timeshares), straight-up kicking them off the planet, artificial environments, returning them to their environment, ect...most likely, after the war, a combination of all of the above would have to have been enforced for any kind of humane functionality.

That said, you do have a point - for all that the U.S. masquerades as the land of liberty and freedom, our State is damn controlling at times, and at the top of a slippery slope into totalitarianism. They absolutely would try to forbid voluntary Yeerks/Controllers. The question is, will it do anything? The U.S. has a long track record with failure in limiting victimless crimes - i.e. alcohol (prohibition), drugs (War on Drugs), and prostitution (Nevada may be the only place where it's legal, but that's certainly not the only place it's happening - quite frankly I knew girls in my rural junior high school in Oregon on that track who probably didn't even know that it was illegal, and not just 'against the rules'). Controllers will still be around, it's just a question of if they truly are Voluntary (not as much), and what the side effects of their presence are.

Not to mention - how involved are Andalites and other species with humanity, now? It's been a long time since I've read 54, so I may be remembering it incorrectly/may be remembering the fanon, but it said Andalites started coming to Earth for our Cinnabons, right? What's the American government going to do in the face of that? What kind of technologies are the Andalites going to bring with them, and how much are humans going to get, legally and otherwise? Like, seriously, how is that going to effect our economy? Our religions? Our cultures?

Any new culture clashing into another one headlong, even without colonization or war, creates havoc, at least in human history. An entire new species, or even several? With a sudden and rapid change in technology and interaction? Cultures have changed massively in the last decade or two just because people can instantaneously communicate with each other from around the world - it still takes a day or two to actually get there. But what if suddenly we had access to interstellar travel? My father (who I live in Los Angeles with) would go from having to teleconference with colleagues in China and India and Europe to actually going there himself, and still be back home in time for dinner. How would this effect immigration on Earth? Humans are a rather territorial species. How are we going to enforce not letting people into the Country Next Door when they can hope over to the moon and back as part of a daily commute?

In other words, after the war, there will have been a lot of Total Chaos that got glossed over in the books. I'd be willing to buy the "they were for kids!" excuse, except I'm pretty sure Avatar: The Last Airbender has an even younger target demographic and they are diving headfirst into these kinds of complications with success, so now I'm a lot more hesitant about that sort of thing. That said it was the 90's... With this kind of Total Chaos, one has to consider a.) what everyone will try to do about it, and b.) what will actually happen. In any government (but especially America's) there is a gigantic difference between the two, and that gap would only grow in a post-Alien-War Earth.

Date: 2012-05-06 09:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] starsong24.livejournal.com
Upon re-reading the bit about the Hork-Bajir having their forest reserve, my first thought was: "Well, I bet that cut down on illegal logging."

My brain is weird sometimes...

I'd be willing to bet that some nothlit Yeerks took up positions that were helpful to humans, though. (E.g. search-and-rescue for hikers, feral dog control in Moscow, border patrols, rabbit hunting in Australia, etc.) That would make humans a bit more favourable towards Yeerks in general.

Date: 2012-05-03 12:27 am (UTC)
blue_rampion: A blue rose in the rain (Rose in the rain)
From: [personal profile] blue_rampion
I remember reading an interesting thread by a few other members of the comm a while back - unfortunately I can't remember where, otherwise I'd link it - but if I'm remembering right, they were arguing that in some kinda of situations there could be benefits to being a voluntary controller. I think the examples used where on the issue of mental illness, and how having a Yeerk could help someone who was incapable of controlling their own behaviour. I wish I could remember where that thread was, because the people in it were discussing this much better than I could.

I also imagine they could also be highly useful for diagnostics, much like Aftran was in The Sickness. And also just for research, in understanding how the brain works and functions.

Of course, as a few people have pointed out, there's a lot of issues surrounding the possibility of abuse, not to mention societal attitudes. There'd need to be strict regulations in place, like perhaps whenever the Yeerk feeds the host has to go through a process to make sure that they haven't been mistreated and that they still really want this. I also imagine that if becoming a voluntary controller were permitted, there would be a lot of stigma surrounding it.

Canon-wise, I think the most likely scenario is that all Yeerks either had to choose to become a nothlit or return to the pools forever (and most likely only the pools on their home world). Purely because they were the aggressors in a war they had just lost. There's not going to be much public sympathy for them, either from humans or the Andalites. That's not to say that any other scenario is impossible though, because history can take strange turns sometimes. But, if there's going to be any kind of voluntary co-operation or infestation between Yeerks and other species, it'd probably happen further down the line when the war is no longer an immediate memory and the species involved have had a chance to make reparations.

Date: 2012-05-03 12:50 am (UTC)
ext_442164: Colourful balloons (Default)
From: [identity profile] with-rainfall.livejournal.com
That thread ishere, I think. (http://animorphs.livejournal.com/646561.html#comments)

Date: 2012-05-03 12:59 am (UTC)
blue_rampion: Arnold Rimmer in a gingham dress, with Mr Flibble, the evil penguin puppet (Mr Flibble)
From: [personal profile] blue_rampion
Ah, I think it is! Thank you! (You must have a better memory than me :P)

But yes, even in the case of mental illness there would still definitely be a looooot of issues to consider - is it ethical, it is really worth the potential benefits, which illnesses and to what degree would justify a Yeerk and which ones wouldn't, are the potential hosts capable of making informed consent, etc etc...not to mention the effect on the Yeerk themselves. Still, it is certainly something to think about.

Date: 2012-05-06 08:36 am (UTC)
ext_442164: Colourful balloons (Default)
From: [identity profile] with-rainfall.livejournal.com
Sorry to keep spamming this thread, but there's another discussion here (http://animorphs.livejournal.com/639468.html#comments).
It's going over the same stuff we've been discussing here, but I thought I'd include it just for interest's sake. :)

Date: 2012-05-06 11:20 pm (UTC)
ext_442164: Colourful balloons (Default)
From: [identity profile] with-rainfall.livejournal.com
I think people's objection is that you're wiping out the Yeerks in their natural form - i.e. any offspring would obviously be born as that animal rather than the Yeerk. Which... is basically eliminating any means for the nothlit-Yeerks to reproduce. That's not the same as killing them outright, but it's something in that direction. A way around that problem would obviously be to preserve some Yeerks and set up breeding pools somewhere, either on the Yeerks' own homeworld or some random deserted planet with no other life forms whatsoever. But that'd require portable Kandronas too. And constant guarding and such to make sure the Yeerks didn't run around infesting Gedds and start the whole war all over again.

But, yes, I love the idea of morphing sentient creatures, I think it'd be the cleanest and most humane solution of them all. It has its problems (again, as humans they're more potentially dangerous than as, say, cats), but it would definitely be a huge bonus for the Yeerks.
Someone mentioned Yeerk hosts infesting the Yeerk nothlits; again, it's not perfect, but it's a good idea.

The problem is that we don't know what happened in canon, We've no idea how much the Animorphs and the Yeerks themselves had a say in this. The bloody Andalites could've done anything just for expediency. :(

Date: 2012-05-10 06:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ehyde.livejournal.com
One thing I've been thinking about, for a fic I may or may not eventually write, is--okay, so we've had first contact, we've had an interstellar war, but there's still plenty of conflict here on Earth. Surrendered Yeerks, working for the US gov't, seem ... very useful. I would not be at all surprised to see Yeerks used to "interrogate" prisoners, and for various other intelligence work in the war on terror. This wouldn't be widely known though, as I doubt the general public would approve. But on the other hand we have give support to all sorts of things in the name of national security. Of course, given that first contact is a few months pre-9/11 the war on terror might take an entirely different route in the animorphs universe.

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