Marco, Cassie, & Selfishness

[blue_rampion]

So, I was just watching the most recent Opinionated Animorphs video on #19, and one thing that particularly struck me was poparena's argument that Marco was the least selfish of the Animorphs, while Cassie is the most selfish. And thinking about it, I have to say that I agree. And yet if you just looked at both of them superficially, you'd think it was the other way around.

Marco constantly complains, and often suggests that they should all go an use their powers to get rich instead of fighting the war. He's usually the one saying that they shouldn't do a mission on account of it being insane and they may end up dead. Most people meeting someone like Marco would just assume that he's a self-absorbs selfish bastard. And yet he had a completely valid reason for not fighting in the beginning, one that was more about being concerned for someone else for himself, and unless I've missed something he never actually does back out of a mission. He always goes along.

Cassie, on the other hand, is someone you would assume is not selfish at all when you first meet her. She saves animals. She is concerned about right and wrong. She's compassionate and understanding. Normally all traits you would associate with someone who is not selfish. And yet under the surface, Cassie's actions are often concerned with what she wants for herself. She argues for the moral action not to protect others, but because she wants to be someone who does the right thing. Take David, for example - she traps him in morph not because it is better for David, but because doing so lets her take what she sees as the more moral option, and not have to have blood on her hands. And in book 19, she leaves the group not for other people, but because she doesn't want to become the person the war is making her into. It's an understandable reaction to have, but it is still one born of her being more concerned about herself than about the other Animorphs, or the rest of the world.

There's also a lot of other interesting thoughts on Cassie in #19's Opinionated Animorphs video, buuuuut if I started talking about them too this post would go on forever. So, thoughts?

Comments

[rena-librarian.livejournal.com]

I have to say, when I first started reading, Marco was my least favorite character for a long, long time, because of that impression he can (and apparently DID, the way I skipped around through the earlier books) give. But now that I've read the whole series, I would have to agree with this analysis--he's the one that's got his mind on the goal, and Cassie is the one so stuck on being moral that she loses track of the bigger picture.

[blue_rampion]

I think the think with Marco is that he's not actually disregarding morality - he's just capable of doing complex risk assessment on the fly. He judges the cost of acting and doing something immortal, and not acting but resulting in Very Bad Results, and judging which one is worse. Like with killing Karen/Aftran - killing her is a horrible thing to do. It's killing a innocent child as well as the guilty Yeerk. But, not killing her would have resulted in the discovery of the Animorphs, their deaths and/or infestation, and the subsequent doom of the entire human race (Sure, Cassie found a third option, but only by pure luck). Whereas Cassie couldn't get past the fact that killing her was morally wrong to consider the wider consequences. I think she did know what the consequences would be if she didn't - hell, she even goes "maybe they'll make me your host" - but she can't stand to actually take that action and do something morally wrong, even though in the long run that action would save more people. It's kinda like she values not getting blood on her hands more than she values actually saving people.

[rena-librarian.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much exactly what I was getting at, but you said it so much better. =)

[blue_rampion]

Pft, I just rambled more :P

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

I've never liked Cassie, but I like looking at it through this perspective. Cassie's issues with a mission or decision are never about what they'll do to the group, but what they'll do to her. She's not the team's conscience--conscience, like I've said before, is not somehow a limited commodity--she just gets to be the only conscience that matters. And you're right, this basically turns her into "well I don't want to do this so we're not going to." And Marco, whose whole schtick is strategy/pragmatism, is the antithesis of selfishness. He views his friends, his surroundings, and even himself as resources, not precious, preservable endangered keepsakes. It is a little odd. I'll have to watch the video.

[blue_rampion]

It is a very interesting video this time around, so I'd definitely recommend watching it.

But, I can understand Cassie ending up with the role of the group's conscience. Because while there often that element of selfishness to it, she still appears unselfish on the surface, even I think to the other Animorphs. In fact, I think that not only does Cassie not think of herself as selfish, Marco doesn't think of himself as unselfish. So, I think the Animorphs as a group just never got that deeper understanding of the two of them. They thought of Marco as selfish and Cassie as unselfish, and never got past their own assumptions and realised there was more to it than what was on the surface.

Which kinda makes me really sad that this never got developed with Cassie. I think her realising that she is selfish would have made for a truly awesome character arc.

[anijen21.livejournal.com]

hell cassie just being WRONG once would have been an interesting character arc.

I've always had a lot of problems with her role in the group overall. I really don't think she HAD a purpose other than to give other people interesting dilemmas.

[shrapnelshrike.livejournal.com]

She argues for the moral action not to protect others, but because she wants to be someone who does the right thing.
But the moral right IS the moral right because it benefits many or prevents harm. She thinks that killing is wrong unless there's no other option, so when she HAS another option, she takes it. She believes it is better to survive, even in a ... reduced state, than to die, because where there is life, there is hope. Her beliefs guide her actions. That's an inherent aspect of humanity, not selfishness.

I don't think Marco is any more selfish than the others, but his "unselfish" reason for his reluctance is a single person, just like Cassie's decision to leave in 19 is for a single person.

Marco's reasons are more sympathetic than they first appear, but you can't claim that Cassie is a bad person just because she's not always willing to take the most expedient path, or because she's reluctant to take an action that she views as inherently immoral. I'm personally willing to bend on "absolute" morals to achieve goals, but you can't claim that someone is more selfish than another simply because they're not willing to participate in a course of action or policy that they believe could or will result in more future harm.
The ends do not always justify the means, and Cassie is the person who consistently voices that concern. That doesn't make her selfish, it just means that she's thoughtful and aware that the choice she makes today impacts herself and others tomorrow, above and beyond the single obstacle or set of obstacles she's facing at that moment.

[blue_rampion]

I do kinda wonder how much her getting all of the silly plots factored into her lack oh character arcs. With her getting things like Helmacrons and Buffahumans and geographically impossible trips to Australia, she kinda rarely gets the opportunity for proper character development.

Personally, in regards to her role I think I'd have liked to see less focus on her as the moral compass, and more on her people skills and ability to manipulate. #19 is actually a prime example of what she could do - negotiate with Yeerks and try to turn them to the Animorph's side. Or she could have done interesting things in regards to say, liaising with the Yeerk Peace Movement if the Yeerk Peace Movement was actually used. Perhaps even more of her predicting the reactions of the enemy, like she does with David. She had potential, but it didn't get explored as much as it should have.

[blue_rampion]

I should state that I'm not arguing that Cassie is a bad person - just because someone is selfish doesn't mean that they are bad or immoral. And I can't really blame her for not wanting to become that kind of person who kills and doesn't feel anything (and I think a lot of us, if put in the Animorphs' situation, would feel a lot like Cassie does).

But I think morality is more complex than just being always about what benefits many or prevents harm. Is it wrong to kill an innocent child to save many others? Most people would say yes, even though in that case the moral option in fact harms more people, because more people die.

And morality also isn't the same thing as being selfishness. Morality is about what is right and wrong, whereas selfishness is more about a person's motivation. And I think poparena explained why Cassie is selfish better than I did, but it's like...in #19, she leaves not because she believes that fighting in the war is morally wrong (he actually does believe that the war needs to be fought). She leaves because she doesn't like the effect that the war is having on her. It's her motivations that make her selfish, and she is completely capable of being both selfish and morally right at the same time.

Spoilers for the series

[penandpaper71.livejournal.com]

It is funny how readings can change over time. Although I never classified Marco as selfish when I was younger as his actions actually usually seemed to be aimed at protecting someone else be it the human race, the Animorphs in general, his father, his best friend (I wonder if, given Marco's reluctance to get involved in the war in the first place, he'd have stayed have stayed involved as long as he did if not for Jake. He states explicitly in the first book that he's only going along on that mission because he wasn't going to let Jake go alone and he doesn't find out about his mother until the fifth book, which is when he decides he's done with the war and even then he decides to go ahead with one last mission, where he finds out about his mother and that becomes a major part of his motivation for fighting. After that, I don't think that he ever talks about bailing out again. Why did he stay for so long after that first mission, which he swore was the only one that he'd do?), etc. On the other hand, I'd probably have laughed if I'd heard Cassie called selfish, but as I go through the series again now, I'm surprised that I missed that side of her because it definitely seems to be a part of her character.

I actually do like Cassie and I don't mind that aspect of her character (It makes her seem more human and she comes across as a more rounded character for me because of it), but I'm more bothered by the fact that the books seem to always justify it. She does something, like trust Aftran enough to let her in her head- It's not the fact that she tries to protect Karen that I'd really consider "selfish" so much as the fact that she lets a Yeerk that has already stated that she plans to turn her over to Visser Three into her head, revealing everything about their resistance efforts- (Potentially selling out the whole group, including people she claims to love, and possibly even handing the world to the Yeerks right there and then given that the Animorphs are the only real resistance at the time) in The Departure and it turns out that she was totally right in doing this. I wouldn't have minded it once or twice (Luck happens and maybe Cassie's instincts are really that good), but it seems a bit much to have every her impulsive and sometimes selfish choice turn out to be correct. It's not believable for me and, even though I like Cassie, in my opinion, it's this point that hurts her character far more then the selfishness in some of her actions. Off the top of my head, I can only think of the decision over David's fate ever really calling her judgement into question when he returns, but then it's not Cassie who ends up having to face the consequences of her decision.

Selfishness, although not generally a "good" trait, is human and often, at least, understandable. All the Animorphs have moments of selfishness during the series (The fourth Megamorphs book is based around Jake's own understandable and sympathetic, but still rather selfish wish that they could never have become involved in the war, but it's shown over the course of the book what a poor choice that would have been. It isn't justified as the "right" decision like most Cassie's moments usually are.)

It's something that I wish had actually been confronted in the books. I think that it would have added to her character development a lot.

I'm sorry. I'm babbling now. I'll stop.

Reposted to fix a grammar error. My apologies!

Re: Spoilers for the series

[blue_rampion]

It is kinda odd how long Marco sticks around at the beginning, really. Even after he nearly drowns in a Yeerk transport ship, gets bitten in half by a shark, nearly killed as an ant...really Marco, what were you doing still hanging around? XD

I agree with you there - I like Cassie too, and her selfishness makes her more well-rounded, and relatable. I think all of us can understand not wanting to turn into someone that you don't want to be. (Also, you have a point that it's more the "saving Aftran" thing that's selfish, rather than wanting to save Karen.) And in #19 at least, it gives her some really interesting internal conflict.

And you know, to be selfish is well...human. We all think about ourselves, it's just a question of how much we put ourselves above others. And seeing Cassie confront that part of herself would have been awesome to see, as would have her dealing with being wrong. That's one of the things that makes me sad about Cassie, is that there's so much missed potential with her. I think if she had gotten a character arc or two surrounding her selfishness and/or her being wrong, she'd have a lot less hate directed at her today.

[shrapnelshrike.livejournal.com]

I definitely see what you're saying, but I don't think you can separate Cassie's self-interest or self-serving actions from her morality. For her, that's a major influence on the value of an action, and a significant part of her intrinsic motivation. I'm balking at the idea that morally driven actions are "selfish" simply because morality usually focuses on the impact of an action, and weighing the costs and benefits.

I think what's setting me off is the word "Selfish", actually. It's got a lot of loaded value judgments behind it. I agree that Cassie's morality has a lot of interaction with her self-interest, and this gets translated into (apparently) self-serving actions. But I also think that self-interest in the context of any of the Animorphs is incredibly complex. It is in their self-interest to defend themselves against invaders. It is against their self-interest to risk their lives. They are a great big motivational mess.

[amusesme.livejournal.com]

I love this reading on Cassie and Marco.

It's interesting to think someone as calculating and ruthless as Marco is not actually selfish. I think, if he hadn't had the war to turn his intentions towards, that same calculating and ruthless side would have been used to his own benefit. The opposite could have been said of Cassie. If Cassie wasn't presented with the horrifying choices of war, then maybe her nurturing and caring attitude would have only been used towards the benefit of others. That's not to say that Cassie didn't do a lot of good in the war--she did--but she wouldn't have had to face the same moral conflicts that made her choose her own humanity over the safety and well-being of others.

[blue_rampion]

Oh, for Cassie they are definitely connected. Cassie wants to be a person who does what's morally right, and so when she's being moral she's also acting in her own self interest at the same time. I'd argue that morality doesn't always necessarily focus on the impact of the action, depending on the kind of morality someone ascribes to. Some moral systems of belief will take the view that certain actions are inherently wrong in an of themselves, regardless of circumstances, while others will be more focused on what results the best outcome (...ironically, the latter appears to be Marco's system).

You are right about the word 'selfish' being a loaded word. But, as I said below, I actually like that Cassie is selfish. It rounds her out more, and makes her more human. She's is concerned with doing the right thing, but she also isn't perfect. All the Animorphs have flaws, and this to me is one of hers.

[blue_rampion]

I think without the war, Marco would have continued on being focused on directing his intentions towards friends and family. He'd probably also have used his intelligence towards making himself rich somehow, but he'd have kept on looking after for his father, and that sort of thing.

But yeah, it is kinda weird to go and realise, "hang on, he actually ISN'T selfish", because ruthlessness and unselfishness are...well, not exactly traits that you see paired to together often. Same with Cassie's morality and selfishness. It's kinda what makes it so interesting, that you have these (supposedly) opposing traits in the same person, and it actually works.

[amaronith.livejournal.com]

My problem with Cassie is that she was always right, all the time, and when she wasn't, she didn't have to deal with the fallout. I agree with everyone saying that if she actually had a character arc where she wasn't such a Pillar of Moral Rightness (I know there's a better way to say that, but I'm super tired and can't think of it) and actually had to deal with the fallout of her bullshit.

Also, I could totally understand her behaviour in the beginning of the series - trying to do the right thing and still fight the war, but after a while? It just got really friggin annoying - like she saw herself as being better than the rest of the group because of her Moral compass. it BOTHERS me that she wasn't called on it - at least, I don't remember her being called on it, I should probably reread the series to see if she is.

[acts_of_tekla]

I think we see the same thing with Eva. I have a very strong head canon that she grew up in Peron-era Argentina. It's really only justified by coincidence -- her name (she would have been born within a few years of Eva "Evita" Peron's death, and since Evita is *still* a major cultural icon in Latin America, being named for her isn't much of a stretch), her love of the "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire license plate, her immigrant status, the fact that she and Marco are described as having darker coloring, implying that they are probably Mestizo and therefore Latin American rather than Spanish...pretty weak, but it's not like canon contradicts it.

We know that she is ruthless and cunning -- we see this both in Visser, and by the fact that Marco states outright that he got those traits from her. (Not to mention, it's implied that she left her family behind when she emigrated to the US. As someone who has lived in several countries, that takes SERIOUS guts and determination. Especially because as an immigrant, a woman, and an ethnic minority, she would have to deal with some serious crap.) But we also know that she will and has sacrificed herself repeatedly for the sake of her family and the human race.

You know, this really makes me wish that we had a version of Book 32 with Marco. I feel like I remember reading somewhere that he was the other candidate for that plot. Did KAA address it in the reddit interview by any chance? Anyway, what if they had to deal with ruthless, cunning, viciously sarcastic Evil!Marco, and goofy, unselfish, emotional Good!Marco. What if Evil!Marco got all of the defense mechanisms and Good!Marco suddenly had to deal with all of Marco's numerous emotional issues? Meanwhile, Evil!Marco is probably planning his takeover of the galaxy. CAN THE OTHER ANIMORPHS SAVE EVERYONE?!

Wow, it is late, and I am tired, and it is finals week. I totally cannot write that fanfic; free bunny to anyone who wants it.

Also -- Marco appearing on The Daily Show anyone? I know the window would be a little narrow since Jon Stewart only took over the show in 1999 and they probably wouldn't want to have an under 18 guest (and if you think of the series timeline as starting in 1996, Marco would have been between 18 and 20 when he left Earth in 54, depending on his birthday), and the show didn't really get popular until the 2000 election coverage. BUT STILL. Marco's quick enough to joke well with Jon, and they could make short jokes at each other. Damnit, someone write this too!

(Although I imagine it would be a little unnerving for the cast -- they'd probably be able to see right through Marco's "I am totally mentally healthy. See how I joke?" BS and be like, "There goes a kid in serious need of intense therapy, who has the ability to turn into any number of incredibly dangerous animals.")

[dgcatanisiri.livejournal.com]

!!

Now that's a perspective that I really find interesting, and is another aspect that I wish could have gotten touched upon - everyone BUT Cassie has that personal tie to the fight. From a practical standpoint, she's actually the one member of the team who could back out of it from a 'this isn't my problem' stance (not that she'd do that, of course, but it's there). Her stake in the fight isn't personal, and she's the only one who can say that.

It just goes to show the depth of the series and how it could have actually continued for some time.

[blue_rampion]

PFft, since I think the most we ever get on Eva is "Hispanic", "Mother speaks Spanish", and "not born in America, you might as well headcanon away :P (I'm not familiar with "Mestizo" though. Is that a particular cultural group?) I tend to take lisacharly's headcanon as my own, but other kinds are awesome too!

Oh yeah, Starfish!Marco would have been interesting as hell to see. Though personally I think it'd be more interesting if Funny!Marco got the defence mechanisms and Ruthless!Marco didn't, cause then the inevitable breakdown would be that much more of a trainwreck. (And well, humour is a big part of his coping strategy, so Funny!Marco would probably end up coping better by default...)

I can't write fanfic either, but I would totally love to read something on that. Most I could do was fine a way to rp it out :P

And I know nothing about The Daily Show, so...I can't help you there, alas XD. BUT I WILL TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT THAT THIS WOULD BE AWESOME.

[blue_rampion]

I think that's the problem most people have with Cassie. And it doesn't help that a few of the ghostwriters didn't really get the nuances of her character, and...well. All those insane and stupid plots. Early on, she gets a few books that do give her interesting internal conflicts - like 9 and 19 - but it never gets developed beyond that. Instead of moving further to explore her selfishness more, or have her deal with being wrong, her books tend to just revisit the same issues she had in 9 and 19.

I think she might get called on it a few times, but never any like, really big calling her out? Just the odd line. But I can't remember either.

[blue_rampion]

Oooh, that is a good point. Now I'm kinda wondering what would have happened if Cassie had a personal stake in the war.

[mattiris.livejournal.com]

I think it's very important to make a distinction between selfish (concerned with one's own good to the exclusion of others) and self-interested, which is just really looking out for yourself. Selfish is taking the last slice of pizza because you want it and everyone else be damned, self-interest is taking it because you really are just hungry. It's an often subtle distinction but it's there.

I agree to an extent that Cassie's actions within the war were primarily self-interested but I don't think you could say that applies to her the most of all. From another perspective, Marco trying to kill Visser One was equal parts taking down a major Yeerk target and supporting the (IMO ridiculous) "free or dead" philosophy - but a huge part of it was so that Marco could be free from the anxiety and indecision that came from knowing his mother was possibly still alive, possibly still infested. Let's not forget that Marco's entire reason for staying in the war was to try and save his mother, but when it came down to it, Marco killing Edriss/Eva was just as much about him trying to ease his own mind as it was about anything else.

Really, if you look at all of the Animorphs and their reasons for fighting the war and their actions throughout, there’s a pretty high level of self-interest in there for all of them.

Ax was always more interested in supporting his people's philosophy than in fighting because of any sort of moral concern over what the Yeerks were doing (almost the exact opposite of Cassie, in many respects). The whole 'Prince Jake' thing was amusing and endearing, but at some level it basically becomes 'I have chosen to be a weapon of this war, but I'm not going to personally engage with it.' I love Ax but in many ways he's the Andalite equivalent of a soldier going to Iraq with the mentality of "America, fuck yeah" and not really knowing anything about the war.

Tobias stayed in the war partly out of a desire to do good, partly out of love for Elfangor and his friends, and partly because he used his nothlit status as a way of denying just how fucked up his life really was. Fighting the war reinforces Tobias's desire to stay as a hawk so he doesn't have to deal with the fact that if he becomes a human permanently he will be completely fucking miserable. In a small way Rachel's death was a bit of a godsend for Tobias, because he never had to face the possibility that he couldn't deal with the problems that he escaped from when he was stuck in morph.

[mattiris.livejournal.com]

Jake wanted control, and I don’t mean that in the sense that he was a power-hungry control-freak who demanded leadership – quite the opposite. When we first meet him he’s bummed out because he wants his big brother’s approval and he gets his kicks from minor acts of disobeying his parents (hello abandoned construction site). Which, really, just makes him an average thirteen-year old. But when he’s thrust into a position that, in many ways, makes him the most important person in the world – it’s impossible to not let that change you. He is Neo, he is the Boy Who Lived, he is the Slayer. It gave him a sense of purpose and meaning that he never would have conceptualized pre-Elfangor and never knew he was missing. And this is what I think KA meant when she recently described Jake as addicted to the war: while he wasn’t as passionate about it as Rachel, and no matter how much he may have hated the war and wanted the Yeerks gone, it changed him in a way that he didn’t know he wanted or needed. Jake comments throughout the series, in particularly in #16, that he doesn’t fight to save the world, he fights so he can save moments like his dad making dad jokes over the family dinner table. Which is an amazing scene and says so much about Jake – because while fighting for that idea and what it represents to you is really beautiful, the bottom-line is that you’re fighting for something that because of changes you’ve gone through, is now lost to you – and it’s something you can’t help but idealize and romanticize and feel nostalgic about. Jake lost being an average teenager to become the leader of the Animorphs, but having “control” of the Animorphs let him work towards achieving something that, whether he knew it or not, he’d never have back in quite the same way. Jake’s leadership is essentially his way of taking control of something so that in the midst of leading the most important taskforce the Earth has ever had, in the shadow of an absolutely fucking massive intergalactic war, this kid is able to feel some level of autonomy.

And Rachel kind of speaks for herself. I don't think anyone would argue that by the end of the series Rachel is in the war for the love of it rather than out of explicit moral concern. I can't remember the exact books but aren't there at least two or three scenes, especially in the last arc, where some of the Animorphs raise doubt over whether Rachel even wants the war to end? We know that she does, but Rachel fights the war for the same reason people go hunting: it’s not about bringing home a delicious moose/pheasant/Texan attorney for your family, it’s about the dominance and the bloodlust and the power and that desire to prove yourself and win (he says theoretically, being pretty firmly anti-hunting).

Really, you would never fault any of the Animorphs for their actions or attitude or performance in the war. They “saved us” (so to speak), and anyone with at least two brain cells to rub together can tell you that war fucks you up. But there’s no denying that despite all of them being brave and facing insurmountable odds and wanting to save their planet and their families, etc, there’s a pretty high level of self-interest. And that’s okay. If you give someone a present, a huge part of it is wanting to make them happy – but there are parts of it that are about making yourself feel good, impressing them, maintaining a solid relationship – and there’s nothing bad about that. There’s no 100% altruistic action but that doesn’t mean everyone is just ultimately out for themselves. The way the Animorphs conducted themselves throughout just complements their own personalities and approach to life. When something as all-consuming as being the only defence in an intergalactic war comes along – it’s hard, probably impossible, to not let that become the thing that most influences your identity.

[a-happy-book.livejournal.com]

lol Kangaroo!Cassie. I thought that in the beginning Cassie was a better character simply because she understood things majority of the other Animorphs didn't: animals.